Speaker 1: Hi listeners. We have with us today, Lareina Yee, and she is a McKinsey Global Institute director leading technology, the global head of tech alliances, and the co-author of the exciting new book The Broken Rung: When the Career Ladder Breaks for Women and How They Can Succeed in Spite of It. Lareina, I’m so excited to have you.

Speaker 2: Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.

Speaker 1: My gosh. So let’s start with what prompted the book. You have been at McKinsey deep in Lean In research and all the things over the years and the Women in the Workplace report, which I always affectionately joke is like my Christmas morning when I get that present to open and see what’s changed and hope that things have changed for the better. But you’ve been part of this work for a long time. The broken rung has persisted for years. I’m curious what prompted writing this book with you and your colleagues?

Speaker 2: Well, Julie, I think that as you mentioned, I’ve co-founded Women in the Workplace over 10 years ago, and in a decade, we just celebrated the 10th anniversary of the research. We have seen improvement, but not substantial improvement. In all those years, I’ve heard so many stories about the upside, the women who, against the odds, have made it work, the tactics that they’re using. For me, the book is really about understanding the problem. How do we just make all the solutions transparent to women? There is no reason that the strategies and tactics for success in one’s career should be a secret. And so that’s really the genesis of the book: simply said, the book I wish I had known when I started my career or in moments where I felt like I needed help or a pivot or a push.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It’s like these hidden ingredients that we’re fighting against all odds. Like we’re superheroes of some sort, the women that make it through that persistent broken rung. So I love it. I think this is a really great updated kind of Lean In type of book for women to say, “Hey, here are the strategies that work. Here are the things we know from 10 years of research that can help us navigate this broken rung scenario.” So I’d love it, Lareina, if you shared a few of those strategies. And maybe what your favorite strategy is for women to navigate?

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think also just to step back, what is the broken rung? A lot of people know about it, but some people are still pretty shocked. So whilst we all look at the top and the glass ceiling, which is really understood, what we have found, as you mentioned for years, is that the problem starts at the very entry level. And so for every 100 men who receive that first promotion opportunity, the odds of advancement for women are 81, so for every 100 men, 81 women. In all the years we’ve been doing the research, we’ve seen that number bounce around, but at the end of the day, over a decade, it’s largely been the same. And that first kind of lack continues to persist, and that’s the ground that women lose over time, and that has an impact on your long-term opportunities, on your financial stability, and quite frankly, in some cases, your confidence. So this is a big thing. That first promotion, which is so exciting, that first step up, we see women just don’t get a fair shake. So that’s the premise. The solution is something that we’ve introduced that’s new, which is 50% of a woman’s lifetime earnings come from something called experience capital. And for women, this is particularly important because, Julie, as you and I know, women outperform in school, getting more of the Bachelor of Arts degrees in the United States. Oftentimes they are graduating with higher GPAs, but that work isn’t as clear. And so whilst women do really well in school, 50% of their lifetime earnings is what they learn on the job. And that’s the premise of the strategies and tactics. So one of my favorites is to stay in the power alley, and this is to make sure that in your career, at some point or for the whole time, you have a P&L role or a profit and loss role, that you are at the core of what makes money for a business and you understand at the core what that looks like. Having that experience is invaluable. 95% of Fortune 500 CEOs, last time we looked, had come from P&L roles. So don’t limit yourself too early. Don’t assume you know how far you want to rise up in that organization, so that’s one tip.

Speaker 1: I love that. I know that really resonated with me as I was going through some of the strategies, and for listeners, definitely pick up the book. Some of these strategies, like you know, it is the company, the reputation of the company really matters, and we keep going back to this risk aversion that tends to be baked into the socialization of gender for women. But leaning in, you know, if someone taps you on the shoulder and says, “Hey, this is an opportunity, go for it,” you know, that whole 60% stat, if we don’t have at least 60% of the qualifications. That was in the book too. Good reminder. And we need our allies too. Need that networking piece really resonated. Me, as I think back, kind of gave me flashbacks to my early career 20 years ago and like many women, you know, I’d done all the things. You know, I had the high GPA. I’d gotten the job at a Fortune 50 company. Was in the leadership development program. Checked all the boxes. And it was instant. I realized I was the only woman. And you’re right, it was. As much as I know, I participated in this narrative, it’s not just it happened to me, but last one to get promoted despite higher performance ratings. The salary, when I ended up leaving because after four years it was just I’d sought out the operations role that women were precluded from and I had to negotiate and navigate and advocate for myself to get the necessity to do that and the P&L responsibilities. And even after all of that, you kind of looked up and you thought, “I don’t see anybody like me.” The values are so different than my personal values and in burnout. And that was a long time ago. I hope that’s not the narrative ’cause these strategies would have really helped me see through that. One of the things I think is most powerful in the data that you all provide is it’s not just me. It’s not just us having this problem. So many of us, and we’re so much more powerful when we work together and use these research-based strategies. I’m curious as you kind of, there’s such a wonderful collection of stories in the book. If there’s a story that kind of paints the narrative of women in the 2020s now in their careers. But when you think like tells an accurate picture of where we’re at right now?

Speaker 2: There are so many stories. One is a woman named Julie Morgenstern, and her story has lots of different pieces. She started in the performing arts. She had her first daughter, and she’s on maternity leave. She’s sitting in her apartment in New York. For years, she thought because she’s in a creative industry, it’s okay to be disorganized, to kind of be more open-ended and to kind of fly by the seat of your pants because she’s in a creative industry. In that small window, and for listeners who have children, you’ll remember those first couple months, there’s a small window when you can get out in New York City and take a walk in a stroller with your baby before you’ve got to get back, and she missed the window. She was so disorganized. She took that. She looked at her daughter’s face, and she said, “We have got to do this better,” and it’s an example of a soft skill that’s a hard skill. Here’s the best part of the story. She becomes so good at what she wasn’t good at that she not only wrote two or three New York Times bestseller books, started her own company, and advises and coaches women and men on how to think about their executive operating model. So what I love is we have that in the chapter of soft skills or hard skills. This is a thing about the skills that matter. But it’s also about entrepreneurship. And it’s also about something you’re not good at doesn’t need to be a thing you’re not good at. I think a lot of us, maybe not in the beginning, but even in the middle of our career, realize we can get really good at these things, and maybe they become actually the axis of other opportunities. There’s so much I love about her story, and she’s a terrific person. Another thing is she took a risk in starting her own business, and one of the things that we talk about is the value of big, bold moves. Julie, you’ve taken these as well, and many of your listeners have, but the definition is where your new job has a 25% or more skill distance from what you were doing. We know those big, bold moves that bet on yourself hugely pay off, so that’s just one story, but it has lots of elements of this in it.

Speaker 1: Well, I’m a caretaking person. You have some data on that. What we learn as caretakers, which still today, present day, the majority of caretakers are women. That’s transferable to the workplace. Organization skills, communications skills, negotiation skills, project management. This stuff, running a household P&L. It’s always wild to me that we don’t see that transfer because men tend to not do those things. It doesn’t tend to be as valued as many things in corporate seem to be, but I love that story and that resonates with me too. Was the end of my corporate career having a baby? Was it was just so hard to do a work that didn’t feel to have purpose and leave somebody that had such tremendous purpose in your life. We know those caretaking years, those childbearing years, are particularly troublesome for the broken rung too.

Speaker 2: They are really hard, and you know, they are one of the things that we talk about in the book is planning for the inevitable. Shouldn’t be surprised. One of the things we talk about is how can motherhood not be a decelerator in your career? Certainly with Claudia Golden and all the amazing research that she’s done, we see that 70% of the jobs are not actually posted, and women who have children, there’s a complete bias against them. All of this is documented, but kind of trying to find the bright side of it or how do you find the opportunity in something that is hard? There’s an amazing story, and this is a woman in San Francisco. She’s a friend. I actually met her. We were preschool parents together, and she was a big, bad lawyer at Yahoo. She had everything going for her. She, you know, and she just, with the dual career family, had to really raise these three amazing boys, and after 14 years doing that full time, she said, “I would like to go back.” She would like to go back for a lot of reasons to be a role model of different types of family structures for her boys and also for herself. She’s like, “I still have a lot in me.” So she went back on a Reborn program at LinkedIn. She’s now a rising star there. That is really, really hard. I think it takes a lot of guts to bet on your potential and say, “My round trip ticket as a mother isn’t necessarily a six-month round trip ticket. Maybe it’s 14 years. Maybe it’s three months. Maybe it’s a year.” But that you’re like, “I still have the ambition, and I still have the energy and the youth in me,” and to still go for it, I just find it really inspiring.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think I suspect there’s going to be so many more of those stories. I love that story for so many reasons, ’cause it’s. We don’t talk about those stories, but with the aging population, the retirement rates, lower birth rates, we’re going to have to get a heck of a lot more creative with career paths. And time outs and returns and welcoming people back into the workforce. I love that threading of personal and professional and making it work. Two things I took from the book that were really interesting to me. Were one technology. We know the tech industry just. It’s so easy to stay on. It’s like so much. It used to be women used to be. But once they realized they were important roles, like so much, it’s such a fascinating industry to me. We still have a problem. A self-selection problem with women entering the industry. We have a pipeline problem. One could make a good argument for folks to it’s never too late to learn. That and. So I know those are two separate things. I found both of those fascinating to really think about maybe areas of your career you haven’t pursued or haven’t thought of yourself as a technologist or an entrepreneur. How do you kind of weave those things in, you knowing you’re going to be so necessary in the job market?

Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. It’s my favorite. It’s very personal since I’m in the tech sector. The technology gap for women starts super early. It starts in school. Some people would say it starts all the way in the math class in 4th grade or 5th grade when you start to see confidence levels drift between girls and boys. Certainly, if we kind of zoom to college, over the last decade or so, we have seen that women in the United States, and this is actually an exception, not a global phenomenon, but in the United States, women with STEM degrees or computer sciences specifically are like 20%. And women with technology, really sort of technical, 26, 27. So it’s incredibly low. And then, Julie, you’re kind of looking at me like, “These are depressing statistics,” but the upside is this whole.

Speaker 1: It is. Point for so long I get so frustrated.

Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, it hasn’t changed. It’s its own issue, but here’s the thing. You can this whole concept of experienced capital. What do you learn on the job? And if anything, with AI, becoming a power user and being able to use technology in your job is made easier. The way that AI works. We know that for all occupations, we’re going to see a dramatic shift with AI. We know that in other research that I led this year that 70% of employees in the United States already expect that 30% or more of their job can be done by AI, so we’re there. So you’ve got to give yourself the advantage of learning how to refashion your job with AI. There are. The good news is we don’t have enough nurses in the United States. It is a job occupation that is mainly predominantly women, 87% women. But here’s the thing. 30% of a nurse’s job could be refashioned with AI. So instead of waiting for that to happen, become really good at it. Make it a habit. Do all the things to take initiative, or if I just simplify it, be like Karlie Kloss, who is our kind of hero story feature, which is years ago, she was modeling, and she had no need for computer science. She realized that the most interesting entrepreneurs that she was meeting, these founders, they all could code. She taught herself how to code 10 years ago. Then she found it was so important that she found it a nonprofit to teach women and girls how to code. So I just think there’s so much you can do.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love. I mean, as we were talking about these strategies, while they are geared towards women ’cause they are specific gendered issues that tend to face women as they progress in their careers, it’s also important that you know we address this with men, and men are educated about these systemic issues. Especially since more C-suites, as your report continuously shows us, there’s still predominantly men, they’re nudging up, right? But I’m just curious. I love the. We were kind of prepping for this interview about a book swap kind of idea. That’s something I’m personally working on a new book about people with power and how to be better allies. That’s something that’s been percolating on is how do we get these books that are really for women? But it’s men that need to help remove some of these barriers and they need to be educated about this so they can be better allies too. How do we reach them with this material?

Speaker 2: Well, a couple of things. We’re just talking about technology and AI. That is equally an opportunity for men and women. AI is what, two, 2 1/2 years kind of on the scene? Everyone needs to learn to be a power user of every technology. You don’t need to be able to make an LLM. You need to be able to use it. So this applies to men and women. The networking, the multiplier effect of advice applies to men and women. Have a board of directors steering your career. So I think first of all, for men, I do think there’s a ton you can get out of the book for your own career. But if you’re a man in power, there are a couple things you can do to pay it forward. Number one, give this book to a woman whose potential you believe in. Just pure and simple. You’re like, “You are talented. You are in my organization.” I’m going to give you this book, and Julie, that’s that tap on the shoulder. That is someone saying,

Speaker 1: So powerful.

Speaker 2: Right. “I believe in you. I believe in your potential. Lift up. You know, I believe you can do great.” Secondly, elect yourself a member of that woman’s board of directors. Then I think you know the next thing is see how you know you live into it on a daily basis. If a woman, you know, we know women often get interrupted, mistaken for someone more junior. There are many things that can happen in that moment. And Julie, you know you can be right there and say, “Wait a second. Julie, can you come back into this discussion because you made a really interesting point before Sam interrupted you.”

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 2: Simple acts make a huge difference.

Speaker 1: Does. Yeah, I often look at allies as mirrors, like they help us see things we haven’t yet seen in ourselves. That’s why I really love the book idea, and if we do have men with power listening, that is such a solid thing you can do. Don’t have to read the whole book cover to cover, right? You can look at key chapters that maybe resonate with the person you’re wanting to mentor or sponsor or advocate for. “Here’s a handy chapter that reminded me of you. I’d love for you to read it and like circle back with me. I’d love to talk about like process what you’re thinking with this or what could we do better as an organization?” What I love is for these books that are designed for individual changes to lead to systemic changes, and you and I know that’s those barriers are tougher. These headwinds are very real. So I hope that I have an 11-year-old. So I selfishly hope that we’re taught the conversation is different when she enters the workforce, I keep hoping. I’m curious learning for you. What are you hoping for the future for women in the workplace, given that you’ve been such an integral part of researching and studying it for decades now?

Speaker 2: Well, we got decades. I think first of all, I was reflecting on my early experiences in the workplace, and I do objectively feel it is better. But system changes take time. Any type of system change, it’s not a quarterly action. It’s more than a minute. It’s one of the things is people say, “What are great companies? What do you see?” One of the things I see in great companies that really champion meritocracy and equality is a multi-generational commitment. What I mean is not just one, but like two or three CEOs have committed to an agenda. May have executed that in their own way, but they are moving the culture and their company forward. So it takes time. So I think one is I’m confident it will be better for your 11-year-old, but I don’t think it’s just on autopilot, and if you’re in the workforce like you and I, we can’t wait 10, 15 years. So we need those strategies that we can do individually against the odds.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. What a powerful message to wrap up with. Thank you so much for all the amazing research and work you do and setting such a strong example for other women to learn from and to model. Part of this is modeling. We need our role models. I’m thankful that you are one for us.

Speaker 2: Well, Julie, thank you so much for having me on and for just being an advocate of all our research and helping. Means a lot.

Speaker 1: That link has been shared more than a few times in my Forbes column. Say it’s like, “Oh, you need this business case again. You need it again.” Yes, here you go. But in all seriousness, it’s an important reminder, and your work makes it very easy to digest and process. Tell our listeners where they can get Broken Rung. The book and follow your work.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So you can get it at Barnes & Noble. You can get it at Amazon, and McKinsey.com has all the links, and there’s a website. And you see me, like, embarrassed almost ’cause I’m so bad at self-promotion. Completely gendered stereotypes, so.

Speaker 1: We study the things we need.

Speaker 2: www.brokenrung.com. Harvard Publishing has been super generous. So there are also smaller bite-sized bits of it that you can also find as well.

Speaker 1: I highly recommend it listeners, and we want to hear what you think. https://www.google.com/search?q=Brokenrung.com. Thanks, Lareina, for being with us today.

Speaker 2: Thank you.